it costs an arm and a leg but in the long run its worth it...reminds of the flux capicitor. lol . I always get a car warranty to cover the bigs off www.usdirectprotect.com

 pretty expensive but worth it

Hope that the whole automobile-industry play with this concept. You don't have to depend from oil , all we must have is standard-batteries for all kind of cars like you offered.

Electric Vehicles are very promising and i really hope they could figure this (battery switching) out..                 

This is exactly the sort of charger that is likely to be installed in a public parking garage, or at an EV “filling station..''''

But when the magic battery arives Better Place will be in the position of a BIG OIL company and wil fight against it beacuse it bussines will be destroyed by this "magic battery" ?

"My benchmark for convenience is the amount of time it takes to refuel a car" ... Yes, for every 400-500 km driven. A 160 km battery (switched after ~110 km, say) requires FOUR switches for every conventional refuel. That is four times the inconvenience, requiring four times the number of refueling lanes per car compared to gas stations, or else the waiting time goes up, creating even more inconvenience.

It is interesting that no one is addressing any of the problems with battery exchange. This post is not an outright opposition to the idea, as it has exciting potential, but the drawbacks should be mentioned. The main concern that I have read about is the high capital investment of a battery exchange site that would present a major barrier to any kind of extensive network required to make this idea effective. Furthermore, it has been suggested that driving habits (excessive acceleration, excessive speeding, excessive accessory use like radio, AC, etc, etc) affect battery performance and it is unlikely that an EV driver would be as conscious of his habits if the driver did not own the battery. Also, Better Place talks about battery deficiency costs being transferred to the EV owner, but if Better Place owns the batteries how will it manage these inevitable costs. I know that Better Place describes the measures it will take to hopefully preserve the life of the battery through charging conditions, but as this article says, batteries inevitably degrade. A battery exchange station will presumably employ the fewest number of batteries required to keep the exchange cycle of one station as continuous as possible (or maybe not?) to optimize its efficiency, meaning that each battery will likely charge and discharge at a faster rate than if each battery were used by a single EV owner. As we all know, each battery has a predicted number of charge/discharge cycles, so the life of each battery would not necessarily be extended by the measures Better Place will take. This speculative analysis is merely presented to show that the battery lifetime of a battery owned by Better place is not necessarily superior to that of the EV owner. Speaking of costs, this website mentions costs associated with owning a battery (the battery cost, private and public charging station costs), but nowhere does it discuss the costs of this battery exchange scheme for the EV owner. Maybe I am just not looking hard enough or have not read enough but what is the proposed charging scheme– per exchange, by member subscription, etc and what would be the annual cost as compared to an alternative? Again, this is a really great option and I would like to see more information about costs and the drawbacks of this system before I jumped on the battery exchange express train. Anyone have intel on places to find this kind of info? It would be greatly appreciated.

The network, which is already being built in several areas - Israel, Denmark, Australia, etc, will take time but as it'll be years before swappable-battery vehicles become commonplace, there is time. All that's required are a basic number of stations in population-dense areas to get it going.
Bad driving habits will have an effect but is only significant if a large number of drivers behave that way as the wear on the batteries are spread out among the subscribers. Also, there will be at least 3 computers involved - one in the car, one in the battery and another at the switch station and Shai Agassi has said that there is significant data recorded in the cars to the point where the scene of an accident can be replayed if multiple Better Place cars were involved. Also, the predicted in-car lifecycle of a battery is about 2000 full discharge-recharge cycles.
At that point, the range is expected to decrease from 160 km to about 120 km but, although the battery would no longer be used for the cars, it would be sold to a business or utility as an energy storage system ( and ultimately recycled for the lithium ) as 3/4 of its service life is still remaining. Of course, a high number of aggressive drivers could cut the usable ( meaning in-car ) life of a battery to under 3 years - it would be interesting to find out how Better Place intends to handle that.

Why are you not competing in Washington State for the Green Corridor project? I agree with your analysis and believe battery exchange is the only realistic option for intercity travel between BC and Baja.

I agree with battery exchange because it is realistic.

Regarding charging spots, I noted in the funding videos that Agassi made clear that "every single" subscriber will require a charge spot _installation_ both at _home_, and at the office, in addition to the random public installations. Does anyone know of an instance of any large scale successful business model, anywhere, that uses a similar requirement: "buy my product/service, but first we need to install a ~$1-2000 item at your residence", especially when there are alternatives that require no such thing? Also, does this not make long distance, out of network, trips physically impossible with a BP vehicle, given that BP chargers would necessarily not be available? That is, a trip from BP equipped Copenhagen to visit family in Germany is not doable?

I love the battery switch idea, it makes perfect sense. If Better Place infrastructure and the cars were in place already I'd be using them now. My wife and I have a Prius (which we love), but fully electric with renewable generation would be wonderful. But - there is no plan to roll the system out in the UK - yet. We're already using fully renewable electricity for our home - http://www.ecotricity.co.uk/

I think that quick charge with Level III chargers is not the solution for long distance driving. It might be successful in urban areas where one charge might last 2-3 days of daily commute. Half an hour charging per 2-3 Days might be acceptable. And this is only needed if there is no other outlet (120V or 220V) around when the EV is parked - which is very unlikely. Quick charge might be also an opportunity for people to slow down a little bit.
For long distance driving the most competing alternative concept is the range extended EV like the Chevy Volt. If the long trip (>300 Miles) is the exception, then the range extended EV can produce the electric energy "on board". Of course it still uses fuel, but is relatively efficient and could use also some bio-fuel.
But if the long drive is the exception, the range extended EV carry the weight of the unused on board generator with its small ICE and the fuel itself most of the time. In comparison the switchable EV requires the switching mechanism, which is more complex than just bolting the battery to the chassis.
How does the cost for the switching mechanism of the switchable EV compare to cost of the on board generator used in a range extended EV ?

"How does the cost for the switching mechanism of the switchable EV compare to cost of the on board generator used in a range extended EV ?" One charge station services a whole community of cars! how much does it to cost to machine all the parts for an internal combustion engine? a lot!$$$$$. You talk so much crap! Half an hour charge....YOU HAVE NO VISION. I HATE BUYING PETROL ITS AN INCONVENIENCE!!!!!!!!!!!!! it takes me 5 min to fill up and pay! When i need petrol I have to drive around looking for one! It interrupts my trip home! DO YOU GET IT? When I get home i just plug it in, bang done easy keep topping it up. Your a fucking looser! 95% of people drive less then 40 km a day, the battery packs supplied by better place will do 100 km easy! Well done Shai Agassi! I can't wait to drive down the coast in my EV and use a Battery charge station in under 2 min. where i don't even need to get out of my car.

It will be electric. When you have 1 million cars on the road you dont put the technology on board, you keep the cars simple and put the effort into the service infrastructure.

If you read my posts here *once* again, I think you have no reason to use such abusive language here. I'm a strong supporter of the battery switch and think this technology has the potential to revolutionize the way we use cars and transportation.
But the enemy of the good is the bad but cheap alternative. If it turns out that the range extended EV (with existing gas stations) is much cheaper than the BEV with switching technology - guess who wins the race.
BTW, you can plug in the range extended EV in just like the BEV at home, at work and anywhere else where a plug exists. I was talking about the exception of a long distance trip, which - per definition - does happen but rarely.
And don't forget the people which have no own garage or parking spot at at home. Where do they plug in over night ?
I can imagine that the switching mechanism of the switchable EV is much cheaper than an on board generator with ICE used in a range extended EV, but don't know. Any expert here able to answer the question ?

few more advantages of the battery switch:
the lifespan of a battery is much bigger. after degradation batteries that goes out of service, will still have highly effective use accumulating cheap off peak energy at night (that otherwise will go to waste) that will be used at high peak. thus alleviating the power grid during the day or extending the solar power to the night

second thing. if the batteries are owned by the organization it's easer when the time eventually comes to recycle them

This is a fantastic Idea put all the control of the power pack we have in the hands of an organisation so when and if they want they can just flick the remote switch and of we go. Marvellous I still say we are spending and wasting recourses in the wrong area we should be concentrating those efforts on hydrogen. Do you know why they will not go hydrogen? Because once they do they can't control it.

you know how right you are. once we go hydrogen they will be fucked thats why they want to make all this. You hijacked the thread rthat was a good move. worried about a little black bar at the top who are we kidding how stupid.we sit infront of our technology pretending we are gods when we all are just suckers.

To paraphrase a famous quote - "If Hydrogen in the answer, I'd hate to hear the question" . Do a bit more research into hydrogen storage, its energy density and the strength of the H2 bond. A hydrogen economy is not a trivial issue and I don't expect to see either that nor fusion in my lifetime ( and I've already been waiting a long time)

I like the idea of battery switch as long as BP or some other entity is the owner and drivers use them as a 'service'. But I think the concept of switching such a large component of the drivetrain out in seconds is wishfull thinking. While the Li-ion batteries may be more safe than they used to be, that is still a lot of potential energy crammed into a small space. For accident protection, the battery pack will need to be nestled inside of the chassis similar to the gasoline tank in a ICE car. As another poster mentioned, in addition to the electrical connection, there will also be the thermal management connections.

All this can be done in a few minutes if the proper infrastructure is in place (lifts, trained personnel, etc.) but I don't see that showing up in the near future.

All in all, though, a good idea.

you might watch out this video of the Better Place battery switch demonstration: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...
This is no computer animated video, this was a live demo of the switching process. The switching of the Renault Fluence Z.E. battery may look a bit different, but is in principle the same.
Btw, the battery in the Renault Fluence Z.E is located exactly where the gas tank is located in its ICE counterpart. Thats the most secure location in a crash situation. I saw the prototype of this car with switchable battery at the international motor show in Frankfurt in 2009.
So we are far beyond wishful thinking - it will become a reality.

I already watched the video and thought it was pretty slick. That being said, there are still a lot of engineering and infrastructure issues to work out - as I am sure you are well aware. For instance, it appears from the looks of it that the Renault Fluence was chosen because it works well with your concept. Not all cars will be configured that way. How much variation in position will the battery switch mechanism tolerate and function properly - how will drivers get their cars in the right position? How many batteries do you need to have on-tap such that a fully charged one will be ready whenever someone pulls into the switch station. How long will it take for battery switch plazas to be commonplace enough for me to trust I will be able to get back from a trip? I could go on but you probably get the idea.

I am sure you have asked yourselves these questions and come up with acceptable solutions. All I am asking of companies like yours is that you are upfront with the challenges and timelines. Otherwise, there will be uninformed people complaining that the only reason we don't have these cars right now is because the oil companies are suppressing them.

First of all , I'm not an employee of Better Place (although I would love to be one) but have followed the development of the company since it was founded.
There are a lot of discussions on http://planet.betterplace.com/ about the switching of batteries and a whole bunch of other aspects around EVs. Just take a look....you will probably find your questions being discussed already. If not just start your own discussion.
In the recent interview on Fox news Shai Agassi announced that the full system will be deployed end 2010 in Israel including the switch stations.
Q: How much variation in position will the battery switch mechanism tolerate and function properly.
A: The prototype worked with twisted and tilted car position e.g. when one tire has low pressure. The switch mechanism in the car is self aligning the battery.
Q: how will drivers get their cars in the right position?
A: Just as in a car wash with some kind of rails and a stop light.
Q: How many batteries do you need to have on-tap such that a fully charged one will be ready whenever someone pulls into the switch station.
A: Lets assume the time it takes to serve one car on one lane of the switch station is 4 Minutes (drive in, switch, drive out) and the re-charging time of one battery pack is 1 hour (1C). So the station need to stock 15 batteries per lane, if designed for continuous operation. It's like a FIFO (First in first out) queue where a depleted battery comes in and is pushing a fully charged pack at the end of the queue into the car. As the batteries will usually be not fully depleted the required number might be a bit lower in practice.

Of course there will be a learning curve for this switch technology and the second generation switch stations will be better than the first ones. Let's wait and see how this works in Israel.

"Q: How many batteries do you need to have on-tap such that a fully charged one will be ready whenever someone pulls into the switch station.
A: Lets assume the time it takes to serve one car on one lane of the switch station is 4 Minutes (drive in, switch, drive out) and the re-charging time of one battery pack is 1 hour (1C). So the station need to stock 15 batteries per lane, if designed for continuous operation. It's like a FIFO (First in first out) queue where a depleted battery comes in and is pushing a fully charged pack at the end of the queue into the car. As the batteries will usually be not fully depleted the required number might be a bit lower in practice."

net_worker: well said, and you've described the worst case scenario - the number of batteries for 24/7 operation, continuously, forever. If BP by use of its in vehicle computer network could provide some prediction of arrivals, or even agreed to relax their queue requirements to something like '95% of our users will have a battery switch time of 4 minutes, with an absolute worse case of ~10 minutes', then the battery quantity required on site could roughly be cut in half.

Yes, I think too that there are a lot of opportunities for operational optimization over the long term. With the slow start in Israel and Denmark, Better Place is able to gather a lot of data in the running system, which can be used to optimize CAPEX (number of battery packs on stock) and other aspects like switch time, waiting time at the switch stations during peak hours etc.
Better Place has applied a system view on transportation and energy supply which can be very powerful. If you are able to monitor every aspect of the system you can optimize it which results at the end in lower cost for the subscribers, great user experience or increased profits for the company.
The following whitepaper (http://www.betterplace.com/ima... shows for example the positive effects of switch stations for the integration of renewable energy sources like wind and solar (PV). With this aspect it is better to have even more batteries on stock in a switch station. The electrification of the transport sector still need a lot of research and with upcoming smart grid technologies there will be even more opportunities to optimize the distribution and use of energy.

net_worker: I've seen the report. I agree entirely with your point about battery exchange as positive for the grid as a system. The problem, in my view, is in making exchange work for the individual vehicle owner, and reliably. Of that, I've seen little information.

I have several questions about BP's battery swap proposal, and have raised them in a post below and others in the Forum without response. I believe battery swaps are currently the only practical route to widespread adoption of EVs. I further believe mechanical swaps are also very difficult problem both technically and commercially, but solvable. As this is the highlight of the BP business plan, the only truly unique aspect of the plan separating BP from dozens of other charge spot players and vehicle manufacturers, it deserves great scrutiny. Yet we continue to see almost no details. As of last week, the new BP visitors center in Israel has no battery swap demonstration. The beta roll out in Israel is 10 months out, but we have not had a report of a single switching station installed.

Hello falstaff77,
there was actually a detailed description of the current state of the switch station development contained in the Better Place funding announcement webcast - Part 3, Part 4 (You'll find it on Youtube). Shai Agassi told the audience that the first fully build out switch station (the production version, if you want) is built and operated in a closed hangar in the middle of Israel. The full switch cycle is 2 minutes and the station can handle two different types of cars using different battery packs. Better Place is currently in the process to improve the logistics around the construction and deployment of the switch stations and the target is to install a switch station within one week at a gas station or elsewhere. Better Place is in the final stage of shopping the parts for mass production of the switch stations (hundreds of stations) and the construction for the deployment.
Better Place has a partnership with Dor Alon, one of Israel’s leading gas station operators, for the deployment of battery switch stations at Dor Alon’s facilities.
I'm sure that Better Place will show the switch station to the public when all ongoing tests are completed successfully. It is so important that the stations works flawless, because any small failure will prove those true who said "..this battery switch thing will never ever work..".
I'm confident that the Better Place team is able to prove that it works indeed.

net_worker: Ah, thanks for drawing my attention to those videos. I watched the first one or two upon release and watched all the 'rah rah' I could muster from the bankers, and so didn't make it to the switching question from the phone lines.

This is the first update on the switching plan I've seen since the May demonstration in Japan. However, Agassi's answer can hardly be described as providing a detailed description. I noted earlier the agreement with the Dor Alon gas stations in Israel, and the Japanese demonstration made it clear that batteries can be switched in two minutes, probably even 60 seconds, IF an electrical connection is all that's required, and IF the undercarriage is not caked with mud and snow, etc, etc. The key challenges in my view lie in other finding locations for BES's. As I mentioned below in my response to Wolkin, it is commonly known that Lithium Ion battery performance is temperature sensitive, including the newer LiFePO technology. With EV range limited at the moment by technology, there is no margin for degraded performance. Without a thermal management system that can be detached on the fly in an exchange, Israel's heat or Denmark's cold WILL degrade the batteries and we will see BP EV's falling far short of 100 miles ranges. We've already numerous reports of cold related range shortfalls in new but non-temperature maintained batteries in the Mitshbishi Miev.

Hi falstaff77,
got it. I think the thermal management question regarding the battery pack is something where the automakers could have distinguishing features. As far as I know the Daimler S 400 Hybrid battery is included in the thermal management of the car (heating/cooling). I know this is a fixed battery.

It would be also possible to integrate the whole thermal management into the battery pack. Heating should be not the problem if plugged in. Cooling is more difficult, but if the pack has a good thermal connection inside the car, the battery cage could be cooled down.
I'm curious how the different car makers solve these problems. It's not primarily the problem of Better Place switching technology, but of course as they own the battery they have a vital interest that the battery does not degrade to fast.

"I think the thermal management question regarding the battery pack is something where the automakers could have distinguishing features." Agreed.

"It would be also possible to integrate the whole thermal management into the battery pack." Agreed, it could indeed, but then the cost of the battery pack, a separate lease, would have to include the thermal system.

"It's not primarily the problem of Better Place switching technology, ...". Ah, there's the risk. I contend it might very well impact BP exchange mechanisms, which the BP all-at-once nationwide roll out model can little tolerate. It may well turn out that a) the switching station must be mechanically responsible for releasing some air flow/fluid connection, or b) signal the vehicle to do so, or c) the switch process is significantly slowed down by the added complexity.

The big picture difference here is really the difference between production products and hobby shop work. You know, any group of 5 guys in a garage can build a car these days from scratch - based on nearly any technology - burning gas, electrons, H2, methane. Those same 5 guys in a garage can _not_ design a car that runs in -20 to 70C temperatures, rain, and salt fog, last for ten years, is straight forward to service, and is designed for high volume manufacture. Even GM does not ship cars with fine print in the manual ala "sorry won't run in the Canadian Winter. " In any case, I believe it is irresponsible of Agassi to continue claiming his vehicle will reliably travel 100 miles until these issues are adequately explained.

We run out of space here :-)
So will keep answer as short as possible.
"..a) the switching station must be mechanically responsible for releasing some air flow/fluid connection.."
Shai Agassi said in Yokohama:
The car's switch mechanism is responsible for releasing the battery and as well for grabbing the battery and locking it into the car. The switch station just lift the pack up/down into the right position for release/grab.
Each car vendor can come up with its own fancy mechanism to do this.
Only interface between switch station and car/battery is a flat platform.
If battery pack of new vendor has electric connections and connections for thermal management cycle, then the new vendor is responsible to make that work. As Better Place use the same battery cages in the switch stations storage and charging area as the car itself, the switch will work there as well.

b) signal the vehicle to do so
This is done already. The car need to communicate with the switch station
to coordinate the workflow of the battery switch defined for each supported car.

c) the switch process is significantly slowed down by the added complexity.
This might be another differentiator between car vendors. Cheap EV
has longer switch-cycle than luxury class EV. Let the car vendors figure
out how to do this with the required reliability.

Each vendor? Lets start with a demonstration by the ONLY vendor: Renault and their Fluence. Does it have any thermal management? Or handling for material accumulation on the undercarriage? Let's see it. I think it very likely Renault is doing nothing about heat, just like the Miev.

Dr Wolkin:

I enjoyed your above discussion, and I you aptly point out the limitations of quick charge alternatives. However, I would like to see a more detailed discussion of switching technology.

In particular, you make the point, "One key consideration is temperature." Just so. For Li Ion technology, cold temperature operation temporarily degrades capacity, up to 20% from 25C to 0C, and long term high temperature operation degrades overall battery lifetime. Partly for this reason, EV makers of the Tesla and forthcoming Volt have integrated extensive thermal management mechanisms into their battery packs. Unattended, this issue might drop the range of a BP-Renault Fluence from 100 to 80 miles in a Danish winter, or a few hot summers in Israel may reduce cycle life unacceptably for a $12,000 to $15,000 battery.

When might we see some discussion of the how BP or Renault intend to handle thermal management in battery switch scenarios? Those details are trivially uninteresting for fixed battery, but the opposite is true for a swappable system. The pack demonstrated last May in Japan shows an electrical connection, but shows no thermal plumbing nor otherwise demonstrates a mechanism for efficient convection or conduction of heat.

are you guys excited to hear about the new breaktroughs in quontum entanglement? about a month ago it was revealed to the world by a team of physicists lead by greg scholes that plants use quontum behaviour in the process of photosynthesis. People who make solar cells will be able to quadruple the out put or more, maybe much more. this could go a long way to making electric cars range ready.

Battery switch stations are te equivalent for petrol station.Without the pretrol stations gas cars would not go more than their gas tank capacity and will have the same range problem as electric cars.

If I may, another profound thought(ha): The fact that you offer an upgrade path to battery improvements and the battery improvements are not tied to a particular chassis, means the chassis will have an extended life, especially if the mechanics are kept to a minimum and are of good quality, i.e., bearings, brake pads, etc. No need to trade the car in when new technology comes along.

I would like to see you get this information out to the public asap as many people suffer from the lack of knowledge about switching batteries and why it's done. Many believe Better Place is trying to take over the electron market by controlling the flow of batteries to the market.\

Low-cost batteries are the key to the use and acceptance of BEVs; if your prices are within a reasonable ranges or lower than the market place, that will help the BEV market to gain acceptance quickly. The American way is to be more independent and not to pay fees where possible, that's why your charges must be reasonable.

I expect Better Place would argue, correctly I believe, that one key to acceptance of BEVs is the upfront vehicle purchase price _and_ the subsequent per mile operation cost. Thus if BP owns the battery and manages to lease it to you at a lower cost per mile than one might pay for gasoline minus the cost of the electricity from the grid, then the vehicle owners doesn't care about actual battery cost.

Why can't I find anything on the corelation of motor-generator-battery relationship (as we have in gas powered cars: the battery powers the spark plugs through the coil, and powers every other electrical device in the car) yet we see no alternator/generator in any electric cars. Think of this idea, as an example only of the idea of motion generating electricity: when I was a kid, my bicycle had a headlamp that was powered by a little generator that laid up against the tire. So why can't something be in electric cars that keeps the batteries charged while the car is moving? I know there can be a way to do this.

It is known that every time you convert energy from one form to another the efficiency will never be 100% so the idea will never work.

BEVs are powered by electrons stored in the batteries and recharged by plugging into the grid or by running the motor as a generator when braking.

The electronics on an ICE auto are powered by the alternator, the battery is only used to start the car and excite the alternator into functioning.

Exactly. So why not run the BEV off the alternator and use the battery to excite the alternator into functioning. The battery on my ICE never loses power no matter how far I drive. Once the BEV is in motion, switch it to the alternator and recharge the batteries. The Prius does the same thing, it just uses an ICE.It just switches back and forth between the two. Of course, since it's an ICE it needs refueling.

I ran experiments in the '80's having an reciprocating invertor produce electricity as a drain, while driving an alternator which charged an offline battery. Very basic stuff. I would then replace the charged battery with the discharged battery, which the alternator would recharge. As expected, the "system" wound down, but ran much longer than if the alternator was not in place. Now introduce, green technology to assist in the recharge along with better batteries (I only had deep cycle lead-acid batteries) and headway is being made to self-sustaining.

I actually had temporary Patent protection from the U.S. but could raise no funds to continue with the project. And I was not allowed to use my findings as my Thesis.

Thanks so much. This helps a lot. Being the "McGiver" type, I always look around for things applied to different functions to apply to something else. As in, looking to boating applications that would apply to motorcycles.
Thanks again.

Wayne, check out www.killacycle.com. Bill has made major strides in technology, in collaboration with A123 batteries, to advance the field. He is somewhat familiar with my findings and feels it is political (power) that is standing in the way of progress. Wish Michal would respond.

You're right. Unless they figure out the durability issues with capacitors, which can charge super fast, or figure out how to bring new battery types to market, switching batteries will be the only real option that will bring EVs to the point where the mass market will accept them.